Working on my first homebrew hack, “Unbound”, and I’m stuck on Defense. I want to change it so that Armor aka Loot would reduce damage taken rather than the default option. My issue is that do I offer it up in piecemeal (helm gives +1, boots give +2) or do it as set (light armour + 1, medium +2). I can see both ways in terms of loot slot distribution
Thoughts?
Hi targ8pratice
I have a similar rule and opted for the lighter version, sticking with complete armor sets:
Adventurer’s Garb (light armor) DEF1
Buckler (light shield) DEF 1
Brigandine (medium armor) DEF 2
Kite (medium shield) DEF 2
Plate armor (heavy armor) DEF 4
Tower (heavy shield) DEF 3
In addition every set of armor imposes its Defense value to Loot slots equipped/carried.
Meanwhile I’m toying with the idea of the Defense value instead of being damage reduction, negating damage completely, as in
Negation = DEF value per day? (as in “Slay the Dragon!” Hexy Studios, and the possibility to regain/recover Defense as in C&S, still figuring out the details).
Nowadays I personally like lighter rules and less detail, focusing on action and ease of play 
I do almost as Obvious,
And the reason is just that I want to keep the numbers low and still have some room for differentiation. If you do piecewise - which is super cool - I think you need to have hit locations too.
(Actually, I separate helmet and armour, since I want to include the option of removing helmet to see better and recover)
Sorry for the thread necromancy, but if you’re still working on this I have a lot of stuff on the subject I could share if you wish.
Yeah I’m still working on it here and there. What’s your thoughts?
I have been using “armor as soak” for five years or more, so I tested this a lot. Recently I went back to DEFENSE as described in the Master Edition, but only because it worked for a few new players.
First, let me be clear that all the testing I’ve done on this was in PLAYER-FACING GAMES, that is, games where Players roll all the dice (they roll to defend instead of the GM rolling to attack, for example). This might require me to copy/paste an extra page of rules here. Sorry about that, I’ll try to summarize as much as possible. Also, there are A LOT of references to “converting from 5E”, because at the time I was using a lot of monster books released for 5E rules for ideas (Threats Database, Book of Lairs, Tome of Beasts, Tome of Horrors…)
Let’s go:
ARMOR AS SOAK MASTER EDITION
GENERAL CONCEPTS. Instead of adding to DEFENSE ROLLS, armor simply reduces incoming damage by its SOAK value.
To calculate SOAK, consider that HALF the DEFENSE value of armor items in ICRPG becomes SOAK. So, an armor with +2 DEFENSE has SOAK 1 and reduces one point of damage from normal attacks. You can add different items to get a higher DEFENSE value then halve the total for a better SOAK (e.g., two +1 DEFENSE items do not grant SOAK individually, but worn together they grant SOAK 1).
It’s up to the GM to determine if there’s an upper limit to SOAK. The recommendation for Player Heroes is that SOAK tops at 5 (the equivalent of a +10 DEFENSE in normal rules).
Shields and some specific defense LOOT still add to DEFENSE ROLLS instead of becoming SOAK. Check with your GM when converting and use whatever makes more sense to you.
Some monsters, spells, or dangers deal PENETRATING DAMAGE that ignores SOAK and directly fries your HP. Be careful.
If you use SPELL ENERGY rules, add SOAK to the amount of SPELL ENERGY needed to cast a spell.
To convert AC from 5E to SOAK, divide the AC or AC bonus (including magic bonuses) by two and round down. Add +1 to the total for medium armor and +2 for heavy armor. For example, scale mail is medium armor with a +4 AC bonus in 5E; this converts to SOAK 3 in ICRPG (half the +4 AC bonus, +1 for medium armor).
MONSTERS can also have SOAK. When converting from 5E, about half of a monster’s natural armor bonus (rounded down) becomes SOAK. So, an adult red dragon (natural armor +9) would have SOAK 4, while an ancient red dragon (natural armor +12) would have SOAK 6.
PLAYER-FACING COMBAT MASTER EDITION
When playing with these rules, the GM should try to ask for DEFENSE ROLLS (ICRPG ME, p. 108) instead of making attack rolls for the monsters. After choosing a TARGET, when a monster attacks, ask the Player to make a DEFENSE ROLL to avoid or halve the incoming damage (based on the kind of attack).
SETTING THE TARGET: When setting the TARGET of a scene, don’t forget to consider how powerful a MONSTER’s attacks would be when making attack rolls vs. allowing for DEFENSE ROLLS. Make heavy use of EASY and HARD adjustments for different attacks or to account for the presence of different types of monsters and attacks. If a monster is particularly strong, but not very fast, defending against it could be HARD, while attacks against are normal (see below).
For example, a Crystal Worm (ICRPG ME, p. 126) has a +4 to all rolls, while an Eye Beast (ICRPG ME, p. 128) has +6, so it should be harder to dodge an Eye Beast’s attack than a Crystal Worm’s. (This detail is actually covered by the TARGET NUMBER - the GM should adjust the TARGET to reflect the fact that all of the Eye Beast’s Stats are higher.)
Another simple solution is to adjust the TARGET for a creature’s attack modes, based on how you defend from them by adjusting the attack to be EASY or HARD for certain DEFENSE ROLLS, as described below - for example, you can make the sword attacks from a swordsman HARD to parry or dodge, but his magic EASY to resist. When creating monsters, always think about new and exciting attack modes, how a hero could defend from them, and how hard it would be.
EXPANDED RULES
EASY AND HARD DEFENSE ROLLS: Some circumstances can make your DEFENSE ROLL EASY or HARD. For example, when attacked by a giant with a mace that’s as big as a man, it might be a normal or even HARD task to parry (a STR DEFENSE ROLL) or block (a CON DEFENSE ROLL), but EASY to get out of the way (a DEX DEFENSE ROLL) because it’s a very slow attack. Against an arrow shot by a skilled assassin it might be HARD to dodge or position yourself fast enough behind one of its allies (an INT DEFENSE ROLL), and impossible to charm him with your innocence (a CHA DEFENSE ROLL).
MONSTER SPECIAL ABILITIES: The GM can create all kinds of special movements and actions for opponents. A monster might have an attack that happens every 1D4 turns that’s impossible to parry or block - dodging is your only hope. Or a psychic attack that always hits, but can be countered by sheer will (WIS) or by force of personality (CHA).
PENETRATING DAMAGE: Some damage simply ignores armor and/or shields. In this case, against these attacks you can’t add your armor or shield bonuses to your DEFENSE ROLL.
CRITICAL HITS: If a DEFENSE ROLL is a natural 1, the defender suffers a CRITICAL HIT. If the attacker triggers a crit on a wider range of results, keep that in mind when making DEFENSE ROLLS. For example, an attacker that crits on a natural 18, 19, or 20 would crit if the DEFENSE ROLL is a natural 1, 2, or 3. Inversely, if a player scores a natural 20 on a DEFENSE ROLL the GM should narrate some appropriate results and benefits. In combat, it mostly translates into the opponent being thrown off balance by the defender, making attacks EASY on the following turn.
MULTIPLE OPPONENTS: You probably noticed by now that with players making DEFENSE ROLLS the game can slow down a lot when many creatures are on the table. To avoid that, here’s a few suggestions.
- Ganging Up. When several weak creatures attack the same opponent, they trigger a single DEFENSE ROLL for their attacks, it being modified to EASY or HARD as necessary. A single Gerblin Traitor attacking with a rusty knife? EASY roll. A few Gerblin Traitors with spears? Normal roll. A small unit of heavily armored elite Gerblin Traitors protected by arrow slits raining down bolts from repeating crossbows? HARD roll.
- Increased Damage. Multiple creatures will trigger a single DEFENSE ROLL but deal more damage. When these monsters attack a single target, roll the highest damage and modify it by +1 per extra monster. So, that Minitaur wielding a battle axe (Weapon Effort 1D6+3) being helped by three of its Gerblin Traitor minions? His Weapon Effort will be 1D6+6 this turn if you don’t defend yourself. (And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why you clean up the minions from the board as fast as you can.)
- Special Effects. Multiple opponents working together to overcome the PCs may open a window to many different scenes and stunts. Can the players intimidate them to break them up? Can they force the enemies into a funnel so only a few of them can fight at the same time? Combine these ideas with the GM’S GUIDE chapter of ICRPG MASTER EDITION, especially the Target Damage concept (p. 104), for some really interesting encounters.
There you go. I hope theres something useful for you there. Take care and good gaming.
Wow that’s pretty much what I’ve been working on for my hacks for ICRPG with player facing rolls. The soak idea is definitely a much better idea than just flat armor reduction. I’ve got some more ideas that need feedback which I’ll do a repost for soon once I’ve got the language down. But my goal for my system is to use the ICRPG framework with a few extra features bolted on. For example
Hey! Let’s see…
- Going classless
I don’t know if you agree but ICRPG for me is pretty much classless. I mean, there are classes, but as classes are just a collection of abilities and loot and don’t influence or limit your evolution in any way… 
- Adding skills
Ahhh I have had Players asking for this. I’d keep the list simple though.
- Renaming the EFFORT types
I use “GUN & TECH” or “ALCHEMY” instead of “GUN”… so it makes sense.
- TAGS, TAG & more TAGS
TAGS are cool, but in Master Edition I feel they’re not as needed as in 2E. But you’re probably preparing a cool list with specific uses.
- Using experience to purchase milestone abilities & character creation
I’m interested in how you’re going to do this. The ICRPG DARK SOULS hack had something similar to experience (‘souls’) for defeating monsters and buying advancements, but the loser author abandoned that long ago… probably because that useless potato licker never even played Dark Souls and only wrote the document because he was high on watching people play souls-like games on YouTube.
- Passing the Torch Initiative (inspired by Daggerheart)
Dungeon World / PbtA does it better IMHO, but if you have a new version I’d like to see it too.
- Status Effects
I noticed you have a CONDITIONS list… Funny, I’ve been using one too
- Hybrid player facing rolls (which is what you’ve already shown is possible)
The TARGET system just SCREAMS for player-facing rolls, doesn’t it? I felt it since first edition.
Initiative determines the order of turns during a scene. This is normally done with everyone (including the GM) rolling a D20 with the highest going first then proceeding clockwise around the table. I propose a different way for the turn order to happen during the scene which enables players to have a more fluid and cinematic experience, I’ve dubbed it "The Torchbearer Initiative"
There’s nothing stopping the players deciding that the GM is the one to start the combat off.
The Initiative check can be made EASY or HARD in the following ways:
- The players ambush the Monsters
- The Monsters ambush the players
- Environmental effects
- LOOT or Milestone Abilities
Taking your turn (Gaining the Torch)
Now that you’ve been chosen to take your turn, you take it per normal, following the steps listed in the “Taking Your Turn” section of the ICRPG Core Rule book.
Determining whose next (Passing the Torch)
Once you’ve had your turn, you then decide who goes next. You can choose either another player or the GM. This cycle continues until everyone involved in encounter have taken their turn.
If the GM has multiple monsters in the encounter, each monster must have a turn before the round is over. It’s up to the GM how many go each turn.
The last person who takes their turn this round decides who starts first in the next round.
Example Ability Milestone
Reactionary When you pass an Initiative check, it counts as 2 successes.
Instinctive Reaction: When you roll an Initiative check, you may choose either your DEX or WIS.
As I said, seems similar to what’s done in PbtA/Dungeon World. It’s a cool system, I like it, it seems to favor more narrative combat. And it opens space for the GM to create monster abilities that disrupt “the passing of the torch”, in a similar way to what legendary actions do in 5e 
I know this has kinda strayed off topic a little but the part I’m kinda stuck on is using the Hybrid Rolling system, how would a monster stat block look?
normally it would be (Wolf, +2 stats, +2 Weapon EFFORT). But with this new idea how would that look?
Wolf, +2 Effort,
Actions - TRIP (Hard ) or be knocked prone
BITE - WEAPON EFFORT
For me, they would look the same. I wrote the player-facing rules with the idea in mind that GMs would not have to change anything in the stat blocks and could use anything already published without any extra work, except adjusting Targets.
So, in a player-facing game, I believe the GM should use the stat block to set TNs for the player’s defense rolls based on the creature’s stats. Make some strong attacks HARD to defend against, but sometimes also give them an EASY vulnerability to exploit.
Example: the BLIND HORROR (ME, p. 123) has Dex +5 and +0 on other rolls. Ok, so if I’m building a standard encounter with a Blind Horror, I’m giving it about Target 12 but making any rolls against the monster’s incredible agility as HARD.
Example: the GARGOLETH (ME, p. 131) has +8 to all rolls, what a beast! An encounter with such a monster is probably at a high Target, a TN 18 is not out of the question, given how powerful it is. However, in such great scenes you also include ways to break the Target number somehow (Target Damage, ME, p. 104-105) and with some work the Players may bring the Target down to 15. Then it’s a matter of surviving the creature’s effects that are HARD to resist.
Example: in my games I once had a drake-like monster attack in a scene with Target 12. However, all attacks against it using physical weapons were HARD due to its armor and undead nature; but since it had a specific elemental vulnerability, attacks using that vulnerability were EASY.
Make sure to note on the stat blocks what kind of defense is EASY or HARD and let the players learn it through trial and error (that’s the difference between a novice and an experienced adventurer after all). For example, my drake-like monster might have a tail attack that is HARD to dodge (with DEX), but can be blocked as normal (with CON). Another attack may completely ignore armor and shields, so you can’t add Armor or Shield bonuses to DEFENSE, but you may dodge (using DEX) as normal. Another attack may even hit anyone inside a specific area, so your only chance is calculating exactly where the attack won’t hit in a fraction of a section (this would be a defense roll using INT), and so on.
Even CHA can be used for defense rolls if the attack is specific enough.
EDIT: I forgot to mention, monster damage rolls… I keep them the same, but I make another PLAYER roll it when one of their colleagues is hit